1
00:00:08,886 --> 00:00:15,053
My name is Donald Frazier and my 
current position is I am an emeritus

2
00:00:15,053 --> 00:00:20,492
scientist working in tech transfer 
in the Science and Technology Office.

3
00:00:29,412 --> 00:00:35,024
My formal training is as 
a physical chemist; I have a PhD

4
00:00:35,024 --> 00:00:45,083
from Rutgers. I have worked in this 
area throughout my entire career,

5
00:00:45,083 --> 00:00:51,220
which actually officially ended in 
December of 2012 and I came back

6
00:00:51,220 --> 00:00:59,070
in retirement to do this additional 
work that I would like to do to help

7
00:00:59,070 --> 00:01:05,043
advance technology with HBCUs, 
Historically Black Colleges and

8
00:01:05,043 --> 00:01:11,917
Universities, and small colleges 
with some advanced technologies.

9
00:01:11,917 --> 00:01:17,184
I was born in Nashville but moved 
to Detroit ultimately after a brief

10
00:01:17,184 --> 00:01:26,054
stint in Los Angeles and grew up in 
Detroit. My early years in Detroit

11
00:01:26,054 --> 00:01:34,136
were that as a young boy who was 
just going from day to day making

12
00:01:34,136 --> 00:01:40,019
sure I was getting some of my moms 
good cooking and trying to do the

13
00:01:40,019 --> 00:01:45,278
right things to satisfy my parents, 
staying out of trouble, and I was

14
00:01:45,278 --> 00:01:57,232
not always successful at that. As 
far as how I got interested, and this is

15
00:01:57,270 --> 00:02:04,171
a story that I like to tell because
it really played a role in my future

16
00:02:04,197 --> 00:02:13,849
work is that my parents gave me a 
chemistry set when I was a child which

17
00:02:13,849 --> 00:02:16,814
I really enjoyed, I liked that, they 
did not know I was

18
00:02:16,814 --> 00:02:20,424
going to like it as much as I did. 
I liked doing that, playing with that,

19
00:02:20,424 --> 00:02:24,412
and the other thing they wanted me 
to do was burn the trash. We had

20
00:02:24,412 --> 00:02:30,042
alleys in Detroit and that was 
how we got get rid of our weekly trash.

21
00:02:30,042 --> 00:02:34,070
We did not have any, I do not remember 
seeing any regular garbage pickups,

22
00:02:34,070 --> 00:02:38,217
they might have come in the alley 
somewhere along the line, but

23
00:02:38,217 --> 00:02:42,224
generally it was us going out, 
burning the trash, leaving all

24
00:02:42,224 --> 00:02:49,033
the ashes back there somewhere. 
I was fascinated by that, by what

25
00:02:49,033 --> 00:02:53,110
was going on in there in the 
combustion process. I was not

26
00:02:53,110 --> 00:02:56,305
calling it that back then, back 
then I was calling it burning

27
00:02:56,307 --> 00:03:03,026
the trash, but I came to realize 
that this was a process that

28
00:03:03,026 --> 00:03:07,150
required oxygen, that it was 
combustion, that it had some other

29
00:03:07,150 --> 00:03:14,966
meanings to it. I slowly learned 
that rustic corrosion was a

30
00:03:14,966 --> 00:03:21,136
similar process, the same process 
of oxidation except not as

31
00:03:21,136 --> 00:03:23,136
exothermic, or it did not give 
off the heat, it was much slower,

32
00:03:23,136 --> 00:03:28,182
and I said this is something else. 
Finally, I came to realize that

33
00:03:28,182 --> 00:03:32,245
this was relevant to even 
electrochemistry, which is even

34
00:03:32,245 --> 00:03:49,002
more subtle, nuanced, and which could 
involve oxygen. It just got me

35
00:03:49,002 --> 00:03:53,879
into oxidation reduction processes, 
which is a form of physical

36
00:03:53,895 --> 00:03:56,809
chemistry, so I became interested 
in physical chemistry. Then later

37
00:03:56,809 --> 00:04:06,144
on, I was teaching up at SUNY 
before I got my PhD, but while I

38
00:04:06,144 --> 00:04:08,419
was working on it, I went up to 
the State University of New York

39
00:04:08,419 --> 00:04:16,113
where I got involved in a program 
which tried to encourage young people

40
00:04:16,113 --> 00:04:20,930
to get into chemistry and the 
sciences. This was a STEM, the beginning

41
00:04:20,930 --> 00:04:24,757
of my interest in STEM. I started 
thinking about this combustion

42
00:04:24,757 --> 00:04:30,030
process I was involved in as a 
kid, what if you dont have oxygen

43
00:04:30,030 --> 00:04:35,989
and you put heat into it? What you 
have is pyrolysis, and so if you do

44
00:04:35,989 --> 00:04:42,027
that, if you take garbage and stuff 
that is biodegradable and burnable

45
00:04:42,027 --> 00:04:47,222
and all of that but you exclude 
oxygen, you can do that using what is

46
00:04:47,271 --> 00:04:50,251
called a tube furnace. You flow 
nitrogen over it and raise the

47
00:04:50,251 --> 00:04:54,022
temperature really high, those 
molecules can fly apart and they

48
00:04:54,022 --> 00:05:01,465
come back together and form crude 
oil.  So we started getting kids

49
00:05:01,465 --> 00:05:07,085
doing that up in the State University 
of New York, Albany, and I found

50
00:05:07,085 --> 00:05:12,057
out that there is a company, there 
was a company, this was back in

51
00:05:12,057 --> 00:05:16,354
the 1970s, it was a long time ago, 
called Oxidental, who also had

52
00:05:16,354 --> 00:05:20,323
that same idea, and they were 
converting garbage to oil in that

53
00:05:20,323 --> 00:05:24,097
way. Now, you dont get crude oil 
as it is coming out of the ground,

54
00:05:24,097 --> 00:05:28,363
but you get fractions of crude oil 
depending on what you burn. We had

55
00:05:28,363 --> 00:05:34,041
students taking the moisture out of 
garbage, banana peels, you name it,

56
00:05:34,041 --> 00:05:40,014
grinding it up to make a powder and 
putting it into tube furnaces and

57
00:05:40,014 --> 00:05:45,982
taking it up to temperature, absent
 oxygen, it comes back together,

58
00:05:45,982 --> 00:05:50,906
you cool it down, and it forms 
crude oil. These students became

59
00:05:50,906 --> 00:05:56,310
very excited. These are not students 
that you would normally  expect

60
00:05:56,310 --> 00:06:01,006
to jump on and get into the science 
field, but the idea that they were

61
00:06:01,006 --> 00:06:06,356
striking oil from something they were 
very familiar with was extremely

62
00:06:06,356 --> 00:06:11,625
exciting to them, so we started 
doing other things. By the way,

63
00:06:11,625 --> 00:06:16,699
Occidental did build some plants in 
the Soviet Union, in Russia, somehow

64
00:06:16,699 --> 00:06:21,202
they got involved with them. I do not
know what the status of that is now.

65
00:06:21,202 --> 00:06:26,246
if there is not enough energy involved
for it to be an effective way to

66
00:06:26,246 --> 00:06:30,760
develop oil. And you do not get the same 
fractions, you get certain fractions

67
00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:37,009
depending on what you start with, what
your starting point is. But you might be

68
00:06:37,009 --> 00:06:41,679
able to make butane, cigarette lighter fluid,
you might be able to make candle wax

69
00:06:41,679 --> 00:06:46,611
you might be able to make some other 
petroleum products other than gasoline,

70
00:06:46,611 --> 00:06:51,419
you might be able to make gasoline if you
have the right combination of things,

71
00:06:51,419 --> 00:06:56,277
But It is an interesting thing that touches 
kids, and students in general,

72
00:06:56,277 --> 00:07:01,991
is to enter an idea that maybe 
they can do something, they can

73
00:07:01,991 --> 00:07:05,588
really think through some things 
that are familiar to them if

74
00:07:05,588 --> 00:07:09,976
they have the right training. 
That is where, to me, STEM comes

75
00:07:09,976 --> 00:07:17,700
into the picture, into the 
process, by getting people

76
00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:20,854
involved by introducing them 
to something that is familiar

77
00:07:20,854 --> 00:07:26,958
to them. The other thing, and 
this is typical of anybody,

78
00:07:26,958 --> 00:07:36,490
along those lines, we decided 
what if we wanted to have an

79
00:07:36,490 --> 00:07:42,253
insecticide? What if we wanted, 
and this is not to say that a

80
00:07:42,253 --> 00:07:45,266
certain class of people have 
roaches, everybody sees a roach

81
00:07:45,266 --> 00:07:48,689
every now and then, and we know 
that that is a problem, it is a

82
00:07:48,689 --> 00:07:53,152
pesticide, we do a lot of 
development in the industry.

83
00:07:53,152 --> 00:08:00,016
What if you got around the 
immunization process or the

84
00:08:00,016 --> 00:08:07,924
fact that you can spray insects 
enough that they become immune,

85
00:08:07,924 --> 00:08:12,542
future generations become immune, 
build up an immunity to that

86
00:08:12,542 --> 00:08:16,905
particular chemical? Well, what 
you’d want to do is sterilize

87
00:08:16,905 --> 00:08:22,130
them, so we started thinking 
about attracting them, using

88
00:08:22,130 --> 00:08:29,943
pheromones, which is a sex attractant, 
to attract, let us say the male to

89
00:08:29,943 --> 00:08:33,770
the female and then doing some 
chemical synthesis, organic

90
00:08:33,770 --> 00:08:37,999
synthesis, synthesizing something, 
this is something that teaches,

91
00:08:37,999 --> 00:08:43,386
that is part of a STEM process, 
teach them something that would

92
00:08:43,386 --> 00:08:45,386
sterilize them, chemical sterilize 
them. There were a lot of chemical

93
00:08:45,386 --> 00:08:48,002
sterilants out there for fruit 
flies and that, so we ended up

94
00:08:48,002 --> 00:08:51,823
getting some formulations and the 
students would get into the lab

95
00:08:51,823 --> 00:08:56,022
and make these things. Then we 
would set up a thing where we

96
00:08:56,022 --> 00:09:00,022
would find the female, have to 
identify the female insect and

97
00:09:00,022 --> 00:09:05,954
the male insect. They may attract 
the male insect and then feed them

98
00:09:05,954 --> 00:09:11,019
these chemo sterilants. Sure 
enough, there were no future

99
00:09:11,019 --> 00:09:15,974
generations. You talk about 
exciting some students, these

100
00:09:15,974 --> 00:09:21,982
things worked elegantly. There 
were other ideas, we used other

101
00:09:21,982 --> 00:09:26,903
ideas with other things, art with 
polyurethane, that sort of thing.

102
00:09:26,903 --> 00:09:34,807
STEM education, i think, is something  
that needs to at least start with

103
00:09:34,807 --> 00:09:41,117
familiarity, something the students 
are familiar with. This is not all

104
00:09:41,117 --> 00:09:46,895
students, there are some that are 
just innately ready to learn

105
00:09:46,895 --> 00:09:50,992
whatever without any kind of 
stimulant or creativity, but then

106
00:09:50,992 --> 00:09:56,211
there is a large fraction that will 
learn it if you provide them with

107
00:09:56,211 --> 00:10:03,994
the right incentive. I think we need 
to do more of that. The biggest part,

108
00:10:03,994 --> 00:10:12,020
I think, is a thing that limits us 
in this whole STEM process is

109
00:10:12,020 --> 00:10:19,217
resources, our resources. We do not 
provide the right amount of resources,

110
00:10:19,217 --> 00:10:23,294
things like the things I just 
described still require somebody to

111
00:10:23,294 --> 00:10:31,835
do it, someone to teach it, someone 
to pay for it. I think until we are

112
00:10:31,835 --> 00:10:37,927
committed to providing the right 
amount of resources and the right

113
00:10:37,927 --> 00:10:46,318
amount of direction, the right amount 
of incentive for the students to pick

114
00:10:46,318 --> 00:10:53,008
it up, we are going to be fighting 
these fires, I think, a little bit

115
00:10:53,008 --> 00:10:59,161
randomly. I know when I was a kid, 
one of the things, not when I was a

116
00:10:59,161 --> 00:11:04,740
kid, when I was in college, one of 
the things I understood that separated

117
00:11:04,740 --> 00:11:12,032
the teaching curriculums from the 
science curricula was the education

118
00:11:12,032 --> 00:11:15,356
curricula, now this was years ago 
and I think they have improved on

119
00:11:15,356 --> 00:11:20,037
that by now, the education curricula 
didn’t require science, didn’t require

120
00:11:20,037 --> 00:11:32,888
mathematics, so the teachers who 
chose education as their pathway to

121
00:11:32,888 --> 00:11:38,068
a degree were doing it largely 
because they wanted to avoid science

122
00:11:38,068 --> 00:11:43,290
and mathematics. I had a few friends 
like that, so I know that was the

123
00:11:43,290 --> 00:11:47,990
case then, I know that has improved 
now, but it is just an example of

124
00:11:47,990 --> 00:11:55,080
what happens to a student who is 
being taught by someone who is

125
00:11:55,080 --> 00:12:00,021
afraid of the topics, the STEM 
topics. That student is not going

126
00:12:00,021 --> 00:12:04,023
to learn, so you propagate that 
same fear in the students, or

127
00:12:04,023 --> 00:12:08,686
aversion to the topic. The student 
might be ever so inclined to learn

128
00:12:08,686 --> 00:12:14,579
the topic, but there is no one 
available to introduce it.

129
00:12:14,579 --> 00:12:20,963
That was then. I think now, they
have corrected that. But even now,

130
00:12:20,963 --> 00:12:27,210
I believe that pay for a STEM teacher 
is probably no better than the pay for

131
00:12:27,210 --> 00:12:32,847
any other teacher. Although all teachers are
great, do not get me wrong, art

132
00:12:32,847 --> 00:12:41,201
all that is wonderful stuff. It is just
that there is a short-change when

133
00:12:41,201 --> 00:12:44,869
it comes to STEM education, just 
naturally. I think anyone who is

134
00:12:44,870 --> 00:12:52,638
knowledgable about engineering, science,
technology, mathematics, is going to

135
00:12:52,638 --> 00:12:58,915
migrate naturally to the highest paying
job and that is generally the case.

136
00:12:58,947 --> 00:13:04,416
There are going to be some who are 
dedicated and willing to do things out

137
00:13:04,416 --> 00:13:11,974
of their own pockets, but that is a 
rare individual, lauditory individual, but

138
00:13:11,974 --> 00:13:16,006
it is not the mass, masses that you 
need in order to move STEM education

139
00:13:16,006 --> 00:13:24,032
forward. What I’m doing now as an 
emeritus is free of charge; I don’t get paid

140
00:13:24,032 --> 00:13:32,744
to be an emeritus. I don’t know how 
many people would do that, I’m not saying

141
00:13:32,744 --> 00:13:38,190
there is something special about me, but 
it is going to require either resources or

142
00:13:38,190 --> 00:13:42,762
someone saying they do not require 
resources to do it.

143
00:13:42,762 --> 00:13:49,268
What we are doing is writing proposals, 
something for his career, trying to get

144
00:13:49,268 --> 00:13:55,881
funded for some forward research, what 
we call low technical readiness level

145
00:13:55,886 --> 00:14:04,242
work, low TRL. He has connections in 
turn; he got his PhD from Vanderbilt,

146
00:14:04,242 --> 00:14:11,912
but he also has connections to smaller 
schools and HBCUs, Historically Black

147
00:14:11,912 --> 00:14:16,865
Colleges and Universities, so he can 
tie in to those. What we are trying to

148
00:14:16,865 --> 00:14:25,975
do is develop a network including 
especially HBCUs and OMUs, Other Minority

149
00:14:25,975 --> 00:14:38,708
Universities, Latino Universities, Hispanic, 
Native American, and to develop work in

150
00:14:38,708 --> 00:14:45,055
conjunction with perhaps some of the larger 
universities like Berkeley, Harvard,

151
00:14:45,055 --> 00:14:53,058
Carnegie Mellon, to do some low technical 
readiness levels so that students that

152
00:14:53,058 --> 00:14:59,359
need time to mature and develop because 
of this lack of STEM education, they

153
00:14:59,359 --> 00:15:05,094
might need a little time. Hopefully
that development and technology

154
00:15:05,094 --> 00:15:10,832
development can converge at some 
time in the future, at which time

155
00:15:10,832 --> 00:15:16,575
we would have a highly educated 
workforce from this particular set

156
00:15:16,575 --> 00:15:21,058
of students and technologies. I 
think about things like that, and

157
00:15:21,058 --> 00:15:26,097
that is just one of them. I presented 
that to Dr. Julien Earls last week,

158
00:15:26,097 --> 00:15:31,224
actually, who is the former director 
of the Glenn Research Center. He is

159
00:15:31,224 --> 00:15:36,248
doing some remarkable things himself 
as a retired director. He is the

160
00:15:36,248 --> 00:15:40,034
product of an HBCU himself; he came 
out of Norfolk State University.

161
00:15:40,035 --> 00:15:46,045
He has done many other things since. 
He went to the Harvard Business School

162
00:15:46,045 --> 00:15:55,031
as well; Dr. Julien Earls is very well 
known in physics. He was very

163
00:15:55,031 --> 00:16:04,859
supportive of this idea of retirees 
going back to where they came from to

164
00:16:04,859 --> 00:16:12,727
some of these unpaid positions, such 
as an emeritus position, which that is

165
00:16:12,727 --> 00:16:22,064
not something that is going to be done 
by a large number of people because

166
00:16:22,064 --> 00:16:27,447
most people would like to increase 
their retirement earnings by doing

167
00:16:27,447 --> 00:16:32,956
something they get paid for, 
compensated for. I am not saying that

168
00:16:32,956 --> 00:16:41,981
I wouldnt eventually do that myself, 
but just as a possible avenue, getting

169
00:16:41,981 --> 00:16:48,019
back and getting these young PhDs 
involved in this, which helps their

170
00:16:48,019 --> 00:16:52,280
career, helps them navigate through 
full cost accounting and line

171
00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,143
management because now you have 
somebody to go around and develop

172
00:16:56,143 --> 00:17:04,003
partnerships within the organization, 
within the institution, and among the

173
00:17:04,003 --> 00:17:08,109
universities, which you would not 
normally have the time to do it. You

174
00:17:08,109 --> 00:17:12,067
work an eight to five job and are 
expected to deliver, for example, if

175
00:17:12,067 --> 00:17:19,510
you are on the SSL team or some team 
that has deadlines to meet, there is

176
00:17:19,510 --> 00:17:29,134
no time for a person who it working an 
eight-hour day in his organization to

177
00:17:29,134 --> 00:17:34,039
do all of these other extra things. 
What I mean is we have a lack of

178
00:17:34,039 --> 00:17:39,287
infrastructure to really approach 
them on the level that we need to

179
00:17:39,287 --> 00:17:44,836
approach it. 
What I am doing right now in this

180
00:17:44,836 --> 00:17:49,282
emeritus role I am playing is I am 
trying to find a process whereby

181
00:17:49,282 --> 00:18:00,011
we can encourage people to come 
back and mentor, and this gets

182
00:18:00,011 --> 00:18:08,004
into mentoring on another level, 
mentoring of PhDs and people that

183
00:18:08,004 --> 00:18:15,983
are advanced but are constrained by 
the institution to do these things

184
00:18:15,983 --> 00:18:23,048
outside of the bounds of what they are 
expected to do. I am working with a

185
00:18:23,048 --> 00:18:29,506
young man, Dr. Navreet Jackson, right 
now, this is the person I was talking

186
00:18:29,506 --> 00:18:37,003
about who has his PhD and is very 
willing, energetic, and capable and

187
00:18:37,003 --> 00:18:47,251
is making some of these connections. 
I think he had Jackson State up today

188
00:18:47,251 --> 00:18:53,294
in a meeting with the folks from 
Tech Transfer. This is something that

189
00:18:53,294 --> 00:18:59,972
needs to be looked at and thought 
about. I am not saying I am providing

190
00:18:59,972 --> 00:19:10,819
the perfect solution. But it is at least 
something that could be discussed and considered.

191
00:19:11,114 --> 00:19:19,087
Most of my teaching, here, was at 
Oakwood. I started physical chemistry

192
00:19:19,087 --> 00:19:28,625
years ago at Oakwood College. I mean, 
at least I had something to do with the start

193
00:19:28,625 --> 00:19:35,017
of physical chemistry at Oakwood College.
That is where I did most of my teaching

194
00:19:35,017 --> 00:19:43,032
At A&M, we, I, along with Dr. Benjamin Penn,
another PhD, he is a polymer chemist

195
00:19:43,032 --> 00:19:46,669
at Marshall Space Flight Center, 
helped develop the physics department

196
00:19:46,669 --> 00:19:55,002
at Alabama A&M, which really rose to 
be one of the top physics departments,

197
00:19:55,002 --> 00:20:02,980
at the time, in the country. Even now, 
they have a Nobel Prize speaker to

198
00:20:02,980 --> 00:20:10,035
come to speak every year, it is 
called the Putcha Venkateswarlu

199
00:20:10,035 --> 00:20:17,974
Nobel Laureate Series. They come 
once a year to A&M, sometime around

200
00:20:17,974 --> 00:20:21,993
this time of year, actually, October, 
November timeframe, and give a

201
00:20:21,993 --> 00:20:33,759
lecture. That department started 
years ago with our support from

202
00:20:33,759 --> 00:20:39,162
Marshall Space Flight Center, and 
Dr. Benjamin Penn and myself were

203
00:20:39,162 --> 00:20:42,244
the ones that did most of that work.

204
00:20:43,413 --> 00:20:51,098
First of all, I started 
from scratch and second of all, I

205
00:20:51,098 --> 00:20:56,855
could not do it on Saturdays because 
it’s a Seventh-day Adventists school.

206
00:20:56,855 --> 00:21:05,016
I had to do things like set up a 
laboratory for enough students, there

207
00:21:05,016 --> 00:21:09,646
were something like twelve, thirteen, fourteen  
students, I had to have enough

208
00:21:09,646 --> 00:21:19,949
experiments, and I had to write to 
do the lectures. We met every week

209
00:21:19,949 --> 00:21:31,460
and we had two lectures, about an hour 
and a half of lecture, i guess, and then

210
00:21:31,460 --> 00:21:37,146
I had a lab that was about three hours 
long. What I did was I accumulated

211
00:21:37,146 --> 00:21:42,269
experiments, I went over to UAH and 
got some of their experiments, I went

212
00:21:42,269 --> 00:21:45,211
out to A&M and got some of their 
experiments and put them all together,

213
00:21:45,211 --> 00:21:50,001
got my own set of ideas and developed 
a bunch of experiments that the

214
00:21:50,001 --> 00:21:55,199
students had to work their way through. 
We got the equipment, we had some

215
00:21:55,199 --> 00:22:03,217
equipment that was already there. 
Dr. Lai Hing, who was another physical

216
00:22:03,217 --> 00:22:09,206
chemist at Oakwood, he’s the main guy there
now, or he was, and he helped with some

217
00:22:09,206 --> 00:22:18,976
calorimeters and the pieces of equipment 
that were there, and we set it up. They

218
00:22:18,976 --> 00:22:26,119
did fashion, they did write the hours to 
match my work schedule. I would come down

219
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:32,111
here after work at Marshall and run the 
lab, do the lab and teach, do the

220
00:22:32,111 --> 00:22:41,998
lectures. I did that for six, seven,eight years 
at Oakwood. That was a very, very good

221
00:22:41,998 --> 00:22:50,013
experience because some of those students 
became extremely talented and went on to

222
00:22:50,013 --> 00:22:55,783
medical school and one of them, she 
found out from me that she did not really